Rotax banned from another club 2012.

Splitting into two classes is a great idea, Class A For those that ride to have good fun on a wekend. Class B for those that just love a good rule book and a whinge,,,,Shaun you are far to polite! Give em some stick...

Its all just a load ov bolox everyone is cheating in sum way shape or form depending on how far u want to follow the rule book but who actually cares? when i started the sport bout 5 yrs ago there was non of this it was just people who wanted to go enjoy a sunday afternoon now those people are in the minority surrounded by winge bags.The amca wont have another meeting to change the rule for the next 12 months and even then how do u police it? there is no one on the mep panel to deal with the sidecars and is there anyone out there to match alan arnott?.Im also sure lapscorers would not appreciate the extra hassle.So how about we all just play nice as everyone is a blatant cheat.
lovingley writen in longmores crayons

Right, glad thats all sorted, must go and buy a spade for xmas, burry my head in the sand like the minority and forget it ever happened.
but then i think back to the late 90`s when we had a national twinshock championship. A full line up of experts and juniors at every round , even a round in scotland. then came the evo/mod outfits creeping in and yes it did kill the sport. people said sod it, put there bikes away etc.
So yes it is worth fighting for. but not banning. needs to be a comprimise of some sort. but what. not sure.

i will leave it to jack to say wont im thinking please click on the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmC0UAnj0
im not treating this as a joke but lets look at some of the start lines we have had this year

I have been listening to similar shit at MX club meetings for almost 50 years, nothing changes much, people always want things in their favour.. even when it’s at the detriment of the club or sport. Everyone can see where this is going given the chance.
Technically I don’t believe the Rotax motor has a place in pre 85 twinshock sidecars, however I do not believe the people running these motors are the problem, some old blokes, maybe not in the best of health have made life a little easier for themselves so they can still enjoy the sport they love, unfortunately this has opened the door for tom, dick and harry to do whatever they please, post 85 bikes and parts are becoming the norm now, it will drive away the true twinshocks.
I like many others have a small collection of classic motorcycles, I enjoy riding them with like minded people, I do not however want to bastardise them as the class develops,, modern bikes should develop, classic should be what it says on the tin-and stay that way..Within a set of rules.
As for cheating, people will always try and inch an advantage given the chance, that’s what rules are for,, and if you don’t like the rules you could look elsewhere, there are many forms of racing, so why try to change one to suit youself just change to another—or just stick with your clique.

Some are in it for the sport and others are in for themselves,, which are you???

Answers on a postcard, By last post Friday 22nd December. to
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From an eligibility view I dont think the rotax should be allowed,but I understand why they are used as they are lighter/cheaper/easier to get parts new and second hand.As there are queit a few of them now dont think its fair to ban them,just decide how to have two seperate classes scored but race together. I use on my wasp modern suspension as the original was wanked and it is easier to get hold of secondhand modern suspension and modern brakes as the orginals wouldnt slow it down.As someone said to me today they like watching the twinshock stuff for the sound they make the single cylinder sidecars arent the same.
A national twinshock championship needs to happen with rules to try to help keep entries up ,run at all the different areas wales/mortimer/farleigh/ken hall/pre65 club,I would nominate Doug Woods for this role.

there is so many rotax engined bikes out there,you could start your own club,that way you can all cheat amongst yourselves!!! other than that have 3 rotax races seperately at these meetings,that way the spectators get to watch at-least 6 good sidecar races,i think that would sort your problem out & also the clubs wouldnt lose entrys and proberbly gain spectators.PROBLEM SOLVED

Just so i'm clear with what the majority are saying.... Rotax engine no good for pre 84? But everything else on the bike can come from any era??

Yes i think you have got it Adam. And if you cheack the AMCA hand book regarding the subject. It states:

AMCA rules. 2011. AMCA 2011 rules, used by the following clubs. Pre 65 club, Mortimer classic Club, Welsh championship, Northampton Classic club.
Acceptable Sidecar Machines
Wasp or other frames with twinshocks or airbag up to 31st dec 1984.
No suspension travel limit.
Spoked wheels only.
Brakes must be of pre-31/12/84 type.

Acceptable sidecar machines are those which can be proved to be 1974 model 2-strokes or older. In the case of 4 – stroke machines, 1984 models or older or assembled from parts available in those periods.
The purpose of the proposed changes to the section – “ Date of Manufacture” from specific cut off dates to “model years or older” eg 31st December 1965” to “1965 Model or older” are to ensure 1966 machines produced in 1965 are excluded from that class. The same approach is recommended across all groups ie pre 65, pre 74 and sidecars.

Single cylinder engines must have been actually manufactures prior to 31/12/84, (rider to produce documentary evidence)

So if the driver produces the required paperwork . there is no problem riding.

4 stroke twinshock thats all thats needed for the Welsh champs,, obviously no water cooled...

I cant believe I am reading this crap. Yes I have just put a Rotax in a wasp but the rest of the bike is pretty much standard. Am I cheating more than a guy who has Reiger shocks, Brembo brakes, Talon wheels with wavey discs & electronic ignition in his pre 85 bike?? It probably has a big bore kit produced after 85 too.
I had the pleasure of riding Greg Wernhams Bertha at Langrish and in Germany. No way my bike is quicker than that. The only advantage I have is electric start and maybe better reliability. Morris, Mallows, Pelling & Wilkinson are going to win regardless of what they ride but if its a pre 85 class then everything has to be just that. You cant cherry pick the bits you want then whinge when someone else does it.

How many crews racing at the next Mortimer meeting will be ignoring the pre 85 brake rule?

I bet Mortimer made their decision because someone has been whinging

Having just read through the jottings relating to this subject, I`m feeling a bit at a loss. Whats the fuss about? The club, ( which ever doesn`t matter ), runs a meeting with a sidecar class, you enter. It doesn`t matter on what, you race what you have. The results are divided into the relevant class, ie pre 84, evo or modern, and the points awarded in the relevant championship. Basta, end of problem. We all have a days racing and are only competing against machines of similar age in the championship. I like to win, but the the whole point for me is to meet friends, rub some beard and ride around a field for a few hours. Surly it`s not so great a problem to define the class of a bike at the start of the year and that`s it, you stay in that class. Classic, frame, engine pre 84. Vintage, The whole kit and carbodle pre 84. Evo, pre 2000. Then we can all race in the same race and have fun. gets more outfits on the line. If the lap scorers are worried about the problem of noting which is which then different colored plates.
At the end of the day you have to be honest about why you race. Do you do it for fun or to win pots. As I said, I like to win so bad I get really fired up, but if at the end of the day I`ve had a good day with friends and can still walk back to the van, I`m happy.
Ok so now you can shoot holes through this or call me names, I don`t care. Me and The Kaptain will be out there next year riding and having fun, and if you beat us on your cheat machine, well good for you, and if we beat you? I know which of us will be more upset by coming second.
And it won`t be us.
:*&&^:

well said !!! , the more chairs the better just split the results

I have been reading this thread over the last couple of weeks or so with interest
and I just wondered if there are any standard pre 84 outfits competing in the UK
Twinshock events
A few years ago I bought a twinshock outfit which is pretty much standard air bag suspension
original dampers and brakes. Engine is an 880 yam XS.Wasp frame
We raced it at Farliegh a couple of years ago, entering thinking we would be up against
very similar or same kind of outfits but found most had all the trick bits on them.
After racing ours we realised the suspension needed a serious looking at as it was like riding a pogo stick
and a bit dangerous to say the least. We have not raced it since as we decided we were way out of our depth
and to put in sheps (Ivans) words needed some serious bastardising. for example brake upgrade and air bag removed and
replaced with modern reiger or ohlin shocks front and rear.THen I thought sod it just keep racing in the evo class with my 98 EML Kx500
and beach racing.So it is just wasted sitting in the garage gathering dust but i cany bring myself to part with it at the moment
So whats my point after all that ?????Well what I;m trying to say is should I bastardise a standard twinshock and start racing it (if you cant beat them join them )

In my humble opinion this is the best statement in this thread by Shepherd:-
"I do not however want to bastardise them as the class develops,, modern bikes should develop, classic should be what it says on the tin-and stay that way".

My EML is going back together with everything period, including the air bag. The only things 'modern' are going to be the shocks, handlebars, alloy hand made tank and a couple of trick bits of bodywork. All new plastics, re nickled frame, forks etc, EML wheels (refurbished), Lockheed calipers (new), Amal carbs.
Oh and naughty me, it will have a Harker ignition....
And then the plan is to spank all the heavily modified and ineligible bikes.
That's if I can bring myself to get it dirty, it's costing me a bloody fortune to do. And then I have to stand on it listening to a crazed lunatic thrashing it like the two stroke he usually rides.

Hi Doogle where did you get the alloy tank made ?

sidecar_passenger wrote:Hi Doogle where did you get the alloy tank made ?

A friend of mine who is pretty good with metal fabrication is doing it. Not sure if he would want to do loads, but if you have a Wasp they are about already.
Give Rob Wilkinson a ring, he knows.

I would like to say that the Welsh Championship does not run under the rules stated earlier on in a post.

Pope (Bryan) Bodfish runs under these rules:
Twinshock
Four stroke
Air cooled

And thats it.........

So I take it Hondas with kick starts can still race at Mortimer?

doogle wrote:

sidecar_passenger wrote:Hi Doogle where did you get the alloy tank made ?

A friend of mine who is pretty good with metal fabrication is doing it. Not sure if he would want to do loads, but if you have a Wasp they are about already.
Give Rob Wilkinson a ring, he knows.

cheers doogle

Hi Folks,

I think there are many good views about, just thought I would add my 2 pennies worth!

For the record we too are cheating as we run Reiger shocks... Reasons being they are rebuildable, easy to get bits for and were on the bike when we bought it! I am happy to say other than that our bike is totally Pre84 spec. 1981 Wasp Chasis, 880cc Norton Engine built using all period parts, Lockheed calipers and mastercylinder, wasp wheels etc.

As a note, there were several much lighter 4-Stroke singles available in 83/84 which are eligable, if they produce the power of the rotax or not is a different matter but might these be worth a look by those who wish to preserve their bodies with a lighter machine and remain within the rules? Suzuki DR, Yamaha XT both being examples... Note the DR was available as a standard 600, but also a conversion was available to 650 or 680 in 1983.

Certain clubs (such as Pre65) are committed to preserving classic racing on period machines as much as possible. The AMCA respects this and allows clubs to inset minor adaptations of the rules to suit. Speaking from experience of the Pre65 Club, if you can prove your frame and engine are of Pre84 spec you can ride as long as it is 4 stroke (note Nat Sealey winning some races this year on his XT powered outfit). Personally I would like to see this extended to air cooled 2-strokes too, but that is a matter for the AMCA to review first as clubs do have to follow the rules to some extent.

I understand there are many out there who have invested heavily in Rotax outfits and can see the grounds for upset over the ruling by Mortimer/Pre65, but given the rules of the sport and the serious Power/Weight ratio advantage gained by running a later Rotax I have to admit I do agree with the clubs. In some cases running in a different class may be a solution, but certainly for Pre65 this would not happen, the club will not enter in to the running of any "non Classic" classes at this time.

Perhaps the biggest fault here lies with the fact the Rotax engine was allowed in the first place, if this had been enforced at the start we would not have this situation now. As we do I would suggest that an Evo/Rotax class be looked at by those clubs willing to support, running in the same race if needs be. Long term the exlusion of Rotax from the Pre84 class unless proved to be a period machine could be a benefit for the sport...

Regarding other mods... This would be a nightmare to police. Perhaps the sport should look at concentrating on Frame and Engine eligibility only... ie. if the Frame and Engine are period it is in... Brakes, wheels shocks, electrics etc can give a slight advantage but are nowhere near as key as engine and frame in my opinion and can make it easier to get parts therefore keeping more bikes running.

Cheers

Dave

personally I think that modern brakes and shocks(brembo,reiger) give a tremendous advantage over
suspension and brakes of the day (air bag , bilstien air shocks etc.)

Another fantastic piece of prose Dave.
My congratulations to your English teacher

Well thats nice and convenient Dave. Under your rules your 'cheat' bike is allowed and all is well. I dont see how you can cherry pick the bits you want. If you insist its pre 85 then surely everything has to be just that. Some of the reasons on this thread for 'cheat' parts are p**s poor. Reiger shocks because its easier to strip down or its safer!! Electronic ignition because its more reliable!! Modern suspension because it was hard to get original parts!! Modern brakes because the originals wont slow it down!! All bol***ks!!
Morris wins because he is faster than most not because he is on a Rotax. He would still win on his Yamaha. He is the only one of the big 4 on a Rotax. Mallows, Pelling, Wilkinson win because they are quicker. Simple!
Batt is quick on his Rotax but was as quick on his Norton (I think it is a Norton).

I bet if they held a meeting with true pre 85s there would not be enough to fill a grid.

According to a previous post about AMCA rules the brakes have to be made before 31/12/84. How many bikes at Mortimer will be 'cheating'?

if anyone is has a rotax twiny for sale, i would be interested....been looking for a nice garden ornament for a while n think a rotax would do the job a treat....mite even plant some shrubs in it...cheers