TWINSHOCK TWOSTROKE?

its an akward subject but your idea seems good, its hard not to piss people off, the ones who have spent hours in the workshop fitting there rotax/single 4s in there chassis.but you see more and more single 4s at meetings now so intead off the strokers killing off the big bikes again prehaps it will be the single 4s??

Just been looking through some results and I stand by my last post, 86 was when it went tits up for the big uns. Thats why i assumed the pre 85 rule was made.
I cannot comment on any 2 stroke riding experience as i have none. so sod the 2 strokes if twinshocks can survive without them, good

So back to the rule.
What is allowed and where? although mostly already answered,
what is the rule at Ken Hall, as Kev said, What chance has anyone got.???????????????????????????????????????????

every one knows the pre 65 rule,as i said i had an 85 wasp wasp chassis that was infact terry goods last works 4 stroke chassis, i rode this at farleigh,the ken hall and binstead,i converted it to twinshock cos it would have stood unused for the rest of the year,mortimer said no due to it being a mono as did pre65.at the end of the day if you turn up with a wasp/eml stroker at some meetings you will be able to ride as you can with a single 4 but if it states twinshock then that should stand, prehaps a min engine size should be added to the rule book??.like i said,our old twins have a new lease off life and i would be a shame to see them put back under cover cos of the single 4s that seem to now be appearing more and more.

We started out on a twinshock BSA,made in 1984(frame),at the first Bill Turner and swopped the shocks over o mono for "modern" meetings where we gave the "modern" boys a good run for their money,annoying some,a woman passenger and a sh*t heap looking outfit beating them. Terry got bored changing suspension over so stayed with the twinshock, We were invited to do a demostration at a pre65 meeting by Ray Tawn to show solos were wern't so bad and over the years we sort of stayed and now most of the solos are a friendly lot. At the end of the day,really we are all just out to enjoy ourselves on old bikes of the 4stroke era.I know you need rules but it does get a bit to political at times (Terry says can't see the appeal of 2strokes-tried a Greeves Hawkstone and a Dot in the 70's before getting a BSA and never looked back since)x :)

In these dodgy times ie£££ let em all run, now is not the time to start throwing stones, we will only do the sport harm.... just think bums on seats for a few seasons, anyone who is willing to spend there hard to come by cash on building a bike and travel to a meeting is welcome by me....And lets be honest chaps the likes of Morris, Harker, Wilkinson etc etc (did i miss Longmore off that list) could show up on a fizzy with a chair on it and kick ass!!!!! so i say we just enjoy.. did someone say BSA? jesus!!.. Dont hit me i'm just a dumb fat kid. love you all

Although the project has stopped at the moment, I have a 84 EML left hander with a 72 Kawi/750 in it.
Sidecars have all but died here in the US, so my efforts to finish have come to a stop.
In the 70's we had a number of the Kawi's running around here in Wasp's and later EML's. I know there are at least 2 or 3 of them still here. If sidecar MX is to ever come back to life in the US it will be in vintage.
I love the big 4 stroke twins, spent most my youth racing them, but there were a number of two stroke combo's racing here at the same time. They were cheaper and easier to maintain even back then,except for a Jumbo!
As far as I know there is only 1 of those here. At least over here if it gets going again two strokes up to a point will be mixed in with the big twins. The cut off will likely be at 1984 for motors and frames, anything after that will have to race with the modern folks, if they can find any of them

whats wrong with you eml mr p?

Nowt I just got a lightweight wasp rolling chassis and want to put a motor into it.Think a aircooled pre 84 510 husky maybe the motor or rotax

i still got a couple of maico eml's in the shed :drunken: thought of converting one to twinshock pretty sad really ought to cut them up for the new garage footing's but one day they may return ...
blobby

Good one. BSA rules ok!!!!!x

if its a two stroke it has to be up to 31 dec 73 its in the amca regs page 16.

Hi Folks,

I understand the rules and why they were made... I can see why people get upset with a mono-shock 800 Jumbo racing in the "Twin-Shock" class, it is not exactly an even playing field (although for the Ken Hall it was a Jumbo Chasis, not a mini jumbo it was still monoshock... ;-) ). Riders age has nothing to do with it, anyone should be able to come and ride twin shocks if they like regardless of ability and speed, that is what I like about the sport. It is fun and friendly for everyone without the serious edge the modern racing has at the mo. It is interesting to note however that many times the 800 Jumbo has been raced with minimal fuss (Many people commenting on how nice it was to hear one out there), it is only since some younger riders have used it and started winning that I have heard more serious complaints, perhaps rightly so, but a rule has to be constant to be fair.

I am sure we all do this for fun, let's face it, we are not in it for the glory or the money! A 1000cc Air cooled twin shock Jumbo should be admissable in my mind...

It is the lightweight 2 stroke singles and the extra travel of monoshock chassis the rules were created to prevent dominating and I maintain they should still be outlawed.

Perhaps it is worth the organising clubs (or at least a sidecar knowledgable rep from each) creating a list of standard machines which are admissable? i.e. All 4 stroke twin shocks which are Pre 85 in both engine and Frame. Specific rules for any Pre85 Rotax and only certain Pre85 two strokes which are not considered "Light weight"? Such as the 1000cc Jumbo? (List to be determined by the organisers together?)

Then we would all know what was in and what was out without having to worry about different rules at different clubs?

Have to be honest, I am not really too fussed about who rides what as long as the playing field is pretty level. Prime example being I know Ian Cooper has a twin shock 1000cc Jumbo he would love to come and race, it is certainly no light weight and he is seeking no unfair advantage. it is also a period bike...

Am now hiding behind my desk and waiting for people to throw things at me...

Dave

(Looks out from behind desk)

Perhaps a sidecar evo class is the way to go? Everything from 85 - 92 or similar? (Am not an organiser so not sure of practicalities or numbers out there)...

Could be run alongside solo evo class? Covers everything from monoshock wasp/wasp to honda/vmc and early EML/Maico, possibly even the 620 Zabel? (Of course 800 Jumbo's allowed?)

(Ducks back behind desk)

Dave

We use the sidecar 100 system at some of our meetings and its a great laugh, brings lots of people together.
Rules are simple as chips.
Combined age of rider, passenger and bike must be no less than 100 years old.

50yr old rider 50yr old passenger = new bike, any bike, :)
25 " " " " " " 25 " " " " " " " " " " " " = 50 yr old bike
Old fart like me + my old yam wasp = really young, fit passenger

Am liking the concept but totally eliminates Al and I... 30 year old driver, 32 year old passenger and 25 year old bike = not allowed to play :-(

On the other hand Dad and his brother qualify without a bike (plus 14 years)... Would they have to run round? ;-)

How about an 85 meeting? :-D

(If Dad gets wind of this they will turn up with my Zabel)

Dave

it would be good if some sort of rules regarding chassis/motors was in place, thing is if more rotax/4 t singles and 2 t bikes start to appear and win then more crews will abanden the big twins, in the end you will end up with the same result that we had in the mid/late eighties, i would rather push my bike round than use a single 4 or 2 t, or worse still throw the dust sheet back over it for another 20 odd years!, the big twins is what the class is all about,the use of 2t singles is what killed off our bikes in the first place, the way foward is ban all singles,2t and 4t, if i wanted to use a 2 or 4 t single then i would be out with the modern class bikes, i raced a vmc 580 honda for 4 years then went twin shock,the twinny i chose was a period bike becouse in my mind what other choice was there?, you chose to got twinshock so the only real choice is the right one, a period bike, if you go twinshock then there is a reason for it and most of us do it for the love of the bikes we are riding on, the reason we went twinshock, a big twin!!

I rode a1984 RT22 twinshock with an aircooled 490 Yam motor in at Farleigh once.
It was the biggest pile of poo I have ridden. No grip, no room to move in the chair, it just felt all wrong.
On the other hand at Farleigh this year we couldn't touch the Rotax's round the corners or out of the corners on Ethel, and she is a good bike.
Maybe they need to have their own class, but is there enough for that?
Because if they are banned that means a depleted grid which is not good.
And then what? Do we ban Reigers, Brembo's and 18' back wheels, because none of that existed pre85.
My bike is 100% original except for braided brake lines and I would love better shocks but won't commit until I know I can use them in the future.

Goodmorning all,this has certainly stirred up a lot of interest from one question. Hope David didn't get to much thrown at him over his desk even though he beat us on Sunday a couple of times(ban young,fit people?-joke)Guess you could do races bit like we used to do years ago in "modern" all the outfits in same race(unless to many) and have two resuts-though then need someone to work them out-used to work at Bill Turner. Keep to pre85 twins shocks or go to a modern meeting? We must keep the chairs going.x

i ride a 1984 rt22 with a 1984 honda xl 600 motor in it does anybody really hav a mega issue with this combination? i know for a fact i couldt afford to run a big twin motor unfortunatley, but ive followed the amca rules and built a outfit that complies.it would definatley be worth putting the idea forward of a sidecar evo class because there must be plenty of outfits that fall in the grey area that should be being ridden. is it worth trying out the idea and running a class at one of the bigger meetings next season

olive114 wrote:Goodmorning all,this has certainly stirred up a lot of interest from one question. Hope David didn't get to much thrown at him over his desk even though he beat us on Sunday a couple of times(ban young,fit people?-joke)Guess you could do races bit like we used to do years ago in "modern" all the outfits in same race(unless to many) and have two resuts-though then need someone to work them out-used to work at Bill Turner. Keep to pre85 twins shocks or go to a modern meeting? We must keep the chairs going.x

This was the way we did it in the USA, of course we have small numbers to start with, but we ran two classes at the same time.

halfmanhalfgorilla wrote:i ride a 1984 rt22 with a 1984 honda xl 600 motor in it does anybody really hav a mega issue with this combination? i know for a fact i couldt afford to run a big twin motor unfortunatley, but ive followed the amca rules and built a outfit that complies.it would definatley be worth putting the idea forward of a sidecar evo class because there must be plenty of outfits that fall in the grey area that should be being ridden. is it worth trying out the idea and running a class at one of the bigger meetings next season

Good morning brothers, i would just like to clear up a few points about the outfit mentioned above,This outfit is a converted 86 monoshock with a 89 honda single in it!!!!! you all know me me i dont make things up!!! (much) :D :D gotta take its rider to the hospital now because he does like to crash alot!!! love you all....

I think one of the problems here is that sidecarcross seems to go in waves. 10 years ago there were full grids at every twinshock meeting and 10 moderns at centre meetings, then the moderns got going again for the last few years with oversubscribed UMX's and the like and 30+ at British rounds with the twinnies splintered in groups of ten(ish) in Wales, Essex and the south, all riding against the same people each time in their own little bubble.
It now looks like twinshocks are having a renaissance again with a number of modern riders looking to buy or build bikes to race. And the Rotax is the cheapest to run and build. If all the Rotax's were pottering around at the back no one would grumble, but each new one on the scene seems to be ridden by a quick guy.
There are SERIOUS moves to run a four round ACU twinshock championship next year, with sidecars. And to make the numbers viable the Rotax's will have to be let in, in their own class or not is the question.
Some sensible, workable rules need to be thrashed out amongst members of this forum in my opinion so people know where they stand.

Sounds good doug, but putting a championship into pratice, thats where the fun lies.
first prob i can see is ACU v AMCA . = date clashes. niether seem to worry about other regarding dates. eg. local club championship (amca) clashes with a acu round. where will peeps loyaltys lie ?????????????.
Once the dates are sorted, there is NO excuss for anyone not ridding a ACU championship. OR IS THERE ??????????????
Lets get this sorted now before its to late.
ALL ideas wecome and listened to. HAVE STARTED A NEW PAGE TO POST REPLYS. as this is a differant subject and may confuss some.

Hey up,

For people doing maybe and AMCA and ACU championship you may face the argument of 4 rides versus 10? (all be it that 6 of those may be Marks Tey! ;-) ). If clashes are avoided it is a great idea.

Regarding Rotax engines, my feeling that if they are not period then they should not be in. Simple rules, Twin-Shock and pre85 Frame and Engine (or of same specification).

If someone builds a bike with a pre85 engine, in a pre85 frame, even if no one raced one pre85, then I don't see how they can be excluded? Someone could have built one, therefore they should be allowed to run...

OK, Ban single 2-strokes too if there is a real unfair advantage there.

Regarding Brakes and Shocks... How far do you want to take this people? I am sure one heck of a lot of us run little black ignition boxes that were also not available back then... Somethings make things easier to maintain, some things are easier to get hold of than authentic parts... Shocks and brakes from Nissin, Brembo, Reiger etc are no doubt better than original parts but I think we are losing focus and this will be way too hard to police.

It is either going to have to be Twin shock, Pre 85 engine and Frame (or equivalent spec)
No two stroke singles, no post 85 Rotax engines

Or all of us out there on Pre 85 twin shock frames, with fourstoke twin engines, on Billstein shocks with points ignitions, running 4star fuel (or Avgas anyone?) with Castrol R oil... All having one race a day with 3 bikes in it, as that is all there is time for and all the bikes allowed to compete after the 50 minute scruitineering inspection required to check authenticity of each bike?

OK, maybe a bit extreme, but from past experience I find the simpler you make something the easier it is to enforce and the less rows about it later down due to confusion?

Please don't throw things

Cheers

Dave

Where are all the Yams and Nortons then ? I've been to watch at Marks Tey a few times this year, and am thinkig of getting an outfit, but there doesn't seem to be any about for sale, so it does make it a bit difficult to say that rotax engines cant be used when there is a shortage of the big twins.If there is a load of Yam Wasps out there for sale i stand corrected, so let me know!