DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

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DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  kernel on Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:11 pm

Here's a first stab at a set of rules that let everyone race. Not ideal, I know, but if the intent of organisations is to facilitate the racing of motorcycles surely we should find a fair way to let people who have built bikes in good faith race them. There are a finite number of 'original' frames and very few of them are standard.
Please read this with an open mind. I value your comments. It would be nice if we had a set of rules that we all had signed up to and all organisations ratified.

TWINSHOCK SIDECAR RULES AND ELIGIBILITY

INTRODUCTION

The purpose of these rules is to allow maximum participation in any Twinshock Sidecar Series. The format is designed to provide full line-ups and fair competition for all competitors. It allows for the updating of suspension and brakes and the inclusion of sidecars built to a similar design to the classic outfits.

INTERPRETATION

Decisions regarding the interpretation of these rules rest with the organisation or club running meetings and their decisions in these matters shall be final.

CLASSIFICATION

Sidecars will be classified by both engine type/year of manufacture and frame type/year of manufacture. See below. It is envisaged that they will race together but compete for separate Class 1 or 2 trophies/prizes.

Class 1.

Frame: The frame will be a production item manufactured before 31 Dec 1984. A new frame produced under licence on original jigs and to original dimensions is also eligible.

Engine: The engine will be air-cooled. It may be single or multi-cylinder two or four stroke. It must have been manufactured before 31 Dec 1984

Class 2

Frame: The frame may be of new design and manufacture but must give all reasonable appearance of belonging to the pre 1985 era.

Engine: The engine may be post 31 Dec 1984. The engine will be air-cooled. It may be single or multi-cylinder, two or four stroke but must resemble engines available prior to 31 Dec 1984.

Example: Triumph Bonneville engine produced by Les Harris 1985 – 1988
Current Rotax single.

(Modern Triumph or Norton engines are considered to be outside the spirit of these rules)

CLARIFICATION

A new, non licensed frame with a period engine is Class 2.
A period frame with a post 1984 engine is also Class 2


SPECIFICATION RULES

Fuel: All machines will run on commercially available unleaded petrol. Methanol is not permitted.

Engines: The maximum capacity for all engine types is:
Single: 750cc
Multi-cylinder: 1000cc

Carburettors: All engines are to be fitted with carburettors. Fuel injection is not allowed. There is no restriction on the number, type or size of carburettors.

Ignition: Any suitable ignition system may be fitted.

Frames: Frames are to be of tubular construction. The sidecar may be permanently attached to the machine by welding or brazing, or be detachable.

Exception: The aluminium Hagon outfit is acceptable under these rules.

Suspension: Front suspension may be either by telescopic fork or leading/trailing link design. If a telescopic fork is used it must be of a type and size available prior to 31 Dec 1984. Class 1 eligible sidecars may not use front forks from a later period. Rear suspension may be conventional pivoting fork with two suspension units or air bag with two dampers. Monoshock suspension is not allowed. Both front and rear suspension must move in a vertical arc in line with the longitudinal axis. There is no restriction as to the type of damper used or suspension travel.

Wheels. Wheels are to be of the spoked type and are to be fitted with suitable tyres for off road competition.

Brakes: Brakes may be of drum or disc type and must operate on the front and rear wheel of the motorcycle. They may be of cable or hydraulic operation but there must be two independently operated braking systems.

Safety: Mudguards must be fitted to all three wheels. The driver and passenger must be protected from chains/sprockets and wheels by suitable guards. Control levers must be ball ended and footrests must be radiused. Exhausts must exit so as not to raise dust or cause a hazard to other competitors and must not protrude beyond the widest part of the sidecar.

Dimensions: All sidecars will conform to current international regulations.

Handlebars: Min Width 600mm; Max width 850mm
Ground Clearance: Min 175mm
Track width, centre of motorcycle wheel track to centre of sidecar wheel track:
Min track: 800mm. Max track 1150mm.
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The rot set's in

Post  adam on Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:37 pm

You can hear the garage doors being closed and locked already!!!!!!Thats alot of rules for a bit of fun on a Sunday!!!
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  kernel on Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:21 pm

...but it's no fun if they won't let you race.... :??<<:
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?????????

Post  adam on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Who are they????????
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  shepherd on Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:27 pm

Men of mystery






lol!
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  doogle on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:37 am

adam wrote:You can hear the garage doors being closed and locked already!!!!!!Thats alot of rules for a bit of fun on a Sunday!!! :%$%$:

Read them again. They are so simple it's silly. But every angle has to be covered.It's ridiculous as it stands as a free for all.
If you don't like them stay at home, at least some of us are trying to safeguard the future of the sport without excluding anyone.
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???????????

Post  adam on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:47 am

Read them again. They are so simple it's silly. But every angle has to be covered.It's ridiculous as it stands as a free for all.
If you don't like them stay at home, at least some of us are trying to safeguard the future of the sport without excluding anyone.

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1.who will police it and enforce it?
2.There is alot of measurements, We don't even scrutineer in the AMCA let alone measure.
3.who will put there name to complaints about individual bikes?Had all this at the AMCA a few years ago with the solo's,, Bloke wrote out a long list of individual bikes but wouldn't put his name to it...
4.26 outfits at Mortimer so i'm told???? Does the sport need saving???


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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:29 pm

If these rules are used.

will they then be adopted by the world twinshock championship. ?????

Or are we having two differant sets of rules. ????.

How differant are the rules in moderns. are engines allowed in Uk but not world. ???? So why is this so with twinshocks.

Seems we need a Single uniform rule for all .

Have to aggree with doug. simple but works for all.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  stretch on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:30 pm

Whilst I agree with the rule, I think we`re starting at the wrong end. If the interest for a championship is there, then the governing bodies should get together and decide on the rules. Or what Kev says will happen and each country and each body in that country will have it`s own set of rules. But hats off to doug for at least thinking about it and throwing it in the ring for discussion.
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  papsck on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:21 pm

Personaly for the intended european championship i would not use these rules.The championship is meant for proper twinshocks no rotax,no new builds.
For uk racing Iwould say the same.I thought the idea for the twinshock pre85 racing was to ride the older bikes against other older bikes at suitable tracks.If you have a bike that isnt a proper pre 85 ride it at modern meeting.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:56 pm

so you sayin no post 84 brakes, shocks, carbs, wheels etc then paul.
can`t have half a rule to suit some and not others.
Its either all or nothing. pre 84 everything.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 pm

Can not see germany refusing gert blatter from riding his home track Klienhau on his modern chassis. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  papsck on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:45 pm

As one of my posts said no restriction on brakes/shocks but pre 84 engines and frames.
Not a problem with Gert at Kleinau as not intending that to be a championship round.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  doogle on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:46 pm

papsck wrote:Personaly for the intended european championship i would not use these rules.The championship is meant for proper twinshocks no rotax,no new builds.
For uk racing Iwould say the same.I thought the idea for the twinshock pre85 racing was to ride the older bikes against other older bikes at suitable tracks.If you have a bike that isnt a proper pre 85 ride it at modern meeting.

I agree 100% P. Trouble is at Bill Turner 2007 I tried to get some support for laying out a few simple rules and nobody wanted to know. Now we have Rotax, Reiger, Brembo, Talon, modified this, modified that, KHR, Wolff, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all....
So it's to late. The end.
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  shepherd on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Never too late Doug,, keep the faith man :??<<:
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:10 pm

So glad its all sorted. The end.

now lets get on with racing together forever. Razz

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Please read the rules...

Post  kernel on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 pm

The idea is that we have two classes within the twinshocks; that gives organisers the opportunity to hold a race/championship just for Class 1 if that is what they want; equally it gives everyone who has spent good money on a bike that now appears to be outlawed a chance to ride.

The idea was that if I could get some sort of concensus on this forum then I would send the 'draft' rules to ACU/AMCA/MCF/ORPA/Pre 65/Mortimer for further comment and hopefully some high level agreement..or not.

Well, I tried Sad
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  Dave Tye on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:37 pm

I have to say I think they are a bloody good start and very simple if you read them through... I made my point about removing the "Unleaded" spec on the fuel on the other Forum, that was my only comment.

Wheels, brakes etc all need replacment at times so again allowing them makes sense to me. It would allow the Rotax and other "banned" bikes to be used in their own class and therefore remove the complaints from those who feel an unfair advantage is gained by those using these machines.

My thoughts were that this would make a good starting place for discussion at least? As for policing, if other clubs wish to add their own amendments (or ignore most of them, add their own sections etc) all the governing bodies allow this in one form or another, look at the Pre65 Club and their "additional" rules which are enforced with vigour with no major issue ;-)

Well Done Ian!

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:03 am

Reading the above statment. nothing would change.

Mortimer and pre 65 club would and could still ban all rotax`s. only wanting to run class 1.

So all the new chassis/rotax motors would still be outlawed , only this time under new rules.

The only advantage of this two tear idea would be to allow like for like to be scored against each other but still all race together.

This is my opinion. not that of the forum.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  papsck on Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:10 am

New chassis/rotax arent pre 84 so shouldnt be allowed to ride,plenty of modern meetings to do.My opinion

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???????????

Post  adam on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:19 pm

papsck wrote:New chassis/rotax arent pre 84 so shouldnt be allowed to ride,plenty of modern meetings to do.My o
pinion
fancy remote shocks ain't pre84,wavey disc's and big twin pot calipers aint pre 84, modern vmc & eml front ends aint pre 84, but you will see them at every meeting...It's unworkable Paul,And lets face it there ain't 100's of good twinshock outfits out there for sale is there? and xs motors are getting rare and if you do find one that ain't fooked you gotta throw alot of cash at it...If someone builds an outfit with there own time and money thats always going to be alright by me...... :%$%$:
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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  papsck on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:10 pm

Plenty of other meetings to ride a sidecar at if your bike isnt pre 84.Hulco/WP shocks were around in the day and brakes yes they are better.

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Re: DRAFT TWINSHOCK SERIES RULES - FOR DISCUSSION

Post  sidekick39ish on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:01 pm

Under these new rules . i think thats 12 outfits excluded from riding in the highly modified pre84 class.

Might be intresting to see just how many clubs would be happy to loose £500 plus per meeting in these hard times.

And will the likes of Mr pellin , Mr Woods, Sheppard and The Kernal and others in favour of the new rules be riding all and every meeting put on for the highly modified pre84 class. All the welsh, pre 65, dartmouth, 3 counties and others, Because without there support at every meeting, there will not be enough outfits to make these small friendly meetings viable. Thus the end of small clubs putting meetings on. Thus the end of grass roots twinshock sidecar racing.

Leaving the very popular KenHall, Farliegh castle etc. which struggle every year to get entrys without this rule in place.

Yes mortimer had a full line up resently. but there was no date clash this year. what happens when they clash again. Struggled to get 15 last year. 5 of which will now be banned under new rule.

This is not my opinion but that of Twinshock fan.





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My last word..

Post  kernel on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:55 pm

Somewhere along the line I think a point has been missed.

My suggestion of Class 1 is based around what I see in the paddock - I am sure that there are perfectly original unmodified outfits around; I just haven't seen them.
So clubs choosing to run only Class 1 will have some parameters that everyone understands..and no protests.

Class 2 is based also on what I see in the paddock, but some of these have been banned or under threat of being banned. With a set of agreed rules, people building them would know where they could and could not ride..and choose not to build them if they so chose.

In brief Clubs can:

1. Run them all together - for same trophy - as Farleigh; Ken Hall
2. Run them together - separate points/trophies
3. Choose to run Class 1 only - like Mortimer/Pre 65 - no Rotax

The idea of a set of rules is that everyone, organiser and rider, knows what is/is not acceptable. It also means that riders build bikes within the rules, no wasted money, no protests.

I put this on for discussion; if someone suggests that Class 1 rules are tightened up, As Paul Pelling does, that's fine; They were a starting point for discussion that would hopefully confirm what was/was not acceptable and ultimately lead to full line ups by making more bikes eligible and affordable. I only ever wanted to race my bike.

I think I'll shut up now.
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Spot on-

Post  adam on Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:46 pm

sidekick39ish wrote:Under these new rules . i think thats 12 outfits excluded from riding in the highly modified pre84 class.

Might be intresting to see just how many clubs would be happy to loose £500 plus per meeting in these hard times.

And will the likes of Mr pellin , Mr Woods, Sheppard and The Kernal and others in favour of the new rules be riding all and every meeting put on for the highly modified pre84 class. All the welsh, pre 65, dartmouth, 3 counties and others, Because without there support at every meeting, there will not be enough outfits to make these small friendly meetings viable. Thus the end of small clubs putting meetings on. Thus the end of grass roots twinshock sidecar racing.

Leaving the very popular KenHall, Farliegh castle etc. which struggle every year to get entrys without this rule in place.

Yes mortimer had a full line up resently. but there was no date clash this year. what happens when they clash again. Struggled to get 15 last year. 5 of which will now be banned under new rule.

This is not my opinion but that of Twinshock fan.






Well said.....All bikes will always be welcome at 3 counties...
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