The Way Forward.

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The Way Forward.

Post  sidekick39ish on Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:16 pm

How do we take twinshock sidecar racing forward or don`t we. ????. With more and more replica, single cylinder, and modified outfits appearing, all wanting to race under the twinshock banner. What is the answer. ????.
We need the entry numbers for clubs to justify a sidecar class, plus more outfits makes better spectator viewing and better racing.
If we simply ban these outfits, the field will half and there will be no racing. no sport. the end.
some people say. "leave things as they are"
Others say. " something needs to be done before it gets out of hand "
should we split the line up. Standard unmodified and modified. still racing together but scoring seperatly as suggested by dougie.
This way you race against your own. like for like.
who decide`s what is standard and what is modified. ????
Who police`s it. ????
come on. lets hear what you are all thinking.
yes or no, right or wrong, we all support the sport and all want to race together.

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  shepherd on Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:05 am

If the bike is not completely pre 85 then rider and passenger must be over 80 years old

Dougie woods and myself could pair up, but KP would need to find an 80 year old monkey
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  sidekick39ish on Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:10 am

Not going to crack the whip. but can we try and keep this topic serious guys and girls and shep.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  john boote on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:29 am

If clubs are struggling to fill twinshock meetings with real twin shock outfits with the big twin fourstroke engines then perhaps they should be opened up to all comers including modern crews.
They could be run so that none of the post 85 outfits score at the meeting, that way the meetings could still run and everyone gets a ride. None of the post 85 crew can steal the silver wear but get the chance of a days practice.
It may be an idea only to open meetings up to post 85 crews if they are struggling for numbers. e.g if less than 12 twin shocks entered then entries from post 85 crews accepted.
If its got three wheels and 2 people on let them ride.


Last edited by john boote on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  neilaldridge on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:47 am

Being new to twinshocks I shall tread carefully; If the class was restricted to pure pre 85 and twinshock then the price of the bikes, would surely exclude some riders, myself included. I have bought a pre 85 twinshock and assume it will be compliant as it was last year, but it was a cost acceptable for me. I could not afford, but would love, an original Wasp,Norton or similar.

I am not looking for trophies just a great fun ride out at the weekend.

Regards to all and sorry if I have offended.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  sidekick39ish on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:13 pm

Look. No one will be or should be offended with any sensible reply . be it right or wrong , its your opinion, and will be taken as it was intended. "your view"
This is an open forum for everone.
lets hear what people want. Its you riding these outfits week in week out. so its your future.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  shepherd on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:45 pm

What is the rule as stands???

My interpretation was pre 85 twinshock, so personally I would like to see anything that raced pre 85 with twinshocks out there today.
That includes 4 stroke, 2 stroke, twins, singles, V's, multi's.
There are several mono outfits which have been converted to twinshock which I believe is well within the spirit of the class, however there are many outfits which have modifications (or indeed built) in such ways that spoil the pre 85 twinshock tradition.
I raced from 1973 till 1987 and scrutineered at national meetings therefor Im aware of what was around and what was not, as are many others.

But at end of the day its about holding meetings with full entries so its worth considering all options.

so be gentle with me

Le Shepherd

I also think the French system of placing age of rider/passenger/ bike in program is a good idea, then you can see who has the advantages/disadvantages!!!!
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The way forward.

Post  noddysmate on Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:08 pm

Air cooled twinshock should do it. To be honest Shaun Mallows , Rob Wilkinson and the like could win on just about any bike you care to give them.As seen at Frome this weekend the Rotax engined bikes were at best on a parr with the twins. Bums on seats is what it is all about. Clubs need to cover their costs on entry fees alone as we can no longer expect to see large crowds comming through the gate. Singles or twins you pays your money you take your chance.As some of you may know i am in the middle of building an outfit for next year, We could have gone single but we have gone twin because that it what we like. We will be racing for the love of the sport not for the amount of trophies that can be won.(covering my ass due to engine choice).

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  doogle on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:17 pm

Deep breath, here goes....
As Noddys mate says the Wilkies, Morris and Mallows will win on just about anything, but....
I think there should be two classes, run concurrently in the same races, self policed by us all.
Class 1: Pre 85 twinshock, air cooled, two or four stroke, minimum twin cylinder. Any shocks, bars, master cylinders and levers, but available in the period brakes, wheels and chassis, even if they are new. For example a new RT27 Yamaha Wasp with YSS shocks,new lockheed brakes, Wasp wheels and Renthal bars.
Class 2: Anything goes as long as its air cooled and twinshock. From an RT15 Norton with Brembo brakes right up to that thing of beauty Gary Wolff has just built and anything in between. Rotax's in this class.
The ultimate would probably be converted VMC mono to twin shock, with Reigers, Talons, Brembo's and a 1000 Yam motor, but to ban that chassis you would have to ban Gary's.
At the end of the day all the quick guys will probably end up in class 2 anyway.
If something isn't done the whole thing is going to blow up big time between the traditionals and the rest. I think this could keep both camps just about happy enough.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  sidekick39ish on Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:09 pm

so far, alot of good points and ideas.
self policing would work if we can all aggree.
think the problem would lie in convincing certain clubs to let all twinshocks that fall into both the above groups race (pre 65).
saying that do others think this would work ????.
If there is enough positive response, the next stage would be to approch all clubs that run T/S chairs and perhaps new clubs as well. giving the increased entrys from new rules.
Also approch the governing bodies. ACU , AMCA, etc.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  halfmanhalfgorilla on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:16 pm

the split class is a good idea but why not split it in the following way
class 1,pre 85 2 and 4 strokes any number of cylinders aircooled,twinshock,( singles are already ment to be able to produce evidence ov eligibility as written in the amca handbook)original suspension (bilsteins etc)and original wheels.
Class 2,pre 85 2 and 4 strokes any number of cylinders aircooled,twinshock but with the fettled bits on, brembo brakes,yss shocks,modern wheels and any modern chassis parts.
Bryan ayres is the machine eligibility co ordinator for the sidecars under the amca but if these changes are across the board amca, acu,orpa etc etc then a selection of folks from both classes need to form a panel to manage these changes and take it to the authorising bodies.
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  shepherd on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:31 pm

That sounds straight forward enough to me,
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  nige&jane on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:14 am

morning all, i dont know how many mono chassis are left out there, putting brakes and shocks aside why not have 2 classes, class 1, any 2t or4t of multi cylinders,twinshock and monos, class 2,single 2t or 4t twinshock or mono, all motors in both classes must be air cooled. it seems a shame that a mono wasp or eml chassis has to sit in a garage either unused or converted to twinshock,i know bums on seats is what is needed, hows about all you out there with more than two bikes selling em so there can be more bikes out there?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  papsck on Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:00 am

Nigels suggestion seems to me as the best so far.I dont think modern sidecars mono/watercooled need to be included as there are enough meetings for them.

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  halfmanhalfgorilla on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:10 pm

its gotta stay as purely twinshock no monos should be included its 2 mch ov an advantage
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  Trickymicky on Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:56 pm

Its a difficult one to anwer on what should be eligible and what should'nt. If we talk about Replica outfits, mine would't qualify, modified outfits- we all muck about with them, if we didnt there probably wouldn't be monoshocks now.
I don't see any problem with the Wilkies,Morris,Pelling and Mallows doing all the winning on whatever they want and reading some of the comments it seems that the arguments are because most of us cant begin to get near them.
The only way to get faster is to "modify" and hope for better results so I cant see how you can ban modified outfits.
I dont want to mention the old days (but I will) but possibly the reason for the drop in numbers is that courses are just not designed with the old bikes in mind. Reading past comments, some of the crews dont want anything dangerous and who can blame them, twinshocks are only for fun after all.
Let everyone ride, monos and all, it would be great to see how the fast twinshock boys fair agains't them.
Clearly ban Championship contenders for riding their monos in these classes. Was it Jeff Smith who said when your "in the air" your not putting the power down??????????????????????????

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  nige&jane on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:49 am

when i refered to monos i was thinking of the heavy chassis, my mono wasp wasp didnt seem to have an advantage over a twinshock,theres aircooled jumbos out there that are twinshock or mono sitting around unused cos ur 2t has to be pre 72?,
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  Trickymicky on Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:42 pm

Getting more complex by the minute, didn't know there was a Wasp/Wasp mono. Just shows you what I know! All these are interesting comments so something must come out of it.

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  Trickymicky on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:56 am

Apologies to Paul Harker, theres another winner on whatever he chooses to ride. The way he went at the Bonanza showed just what a class act he is. Not only that he is an excellent passenger and if he ever got fed up driving, well.........................................................
To all the other drivers and passengers, I think your all bloody good and most helpful to us old timers.

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  billy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:49 am

i think perhaps doogle and the shep could be onto something, have almost a 'stock' class and a 'modified' class policed by ourselves
Class 1: Pre 85 twinshock, air cooled, two or four stroke, minimum twin cylinder. Any shocks, bars, master cylinders and levers, but available in the period brakes, wheels and chassis, even if they are new. For example a new RT27 Yamaha Wasp with YSS shocks,new lockheed brakes, Wasp wheels and Renthal bars. also include sheps comment about the v's multi's etc that ran in the day
Class 2: Anything goes as long as its air cooled and twinshock. From an RT15 Norton with Brembo brakes right up to that thing of beauty Gary Wolff has just built and anything in between. Rotax's in this class.

there is also the question of whether to have one class for everybody, but for people to run with ballast, like to have a minimum bike and crew weight, this will draw more attention to driver skill and real 'backstreet tuning' trying to get the most out of what you have because you know the crews to the right and to the left of you is the same gross weight.

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The way forward? Saving money by the use of parts we have already.

Post  colind on Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:22 am

Not wanting to get in to an arguement with anyone but we race for fun and do give the other drivers a head start at some of the meetings. The wheels we use are left over from other bikes that were raced over 10 years ago so that we can use up old tyres and sprockets which means we have to use the brakes to fit the discs. They are not new wheels, and they weigh more than wasp wheels. Not sure that wheels make us go any faster and the engine we use is not as big as some of the others either. It is to save money, as you all know how much parts cost and how hard things are to find.

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the way forward or is it ?

Post  gods right-hand man on Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:19 pm

i think that at the end of the day the sport isn't growing by any means and if everyone starts splitting people up into classes some people are going to start blaming people and falling out if they don't think they are in the right class and to be honest i don't see why everyone is moaning about this bike and that bike at the end of the day everyone is only out that to race i would understand all of the arguing if it was a world championship but its not i mean the biggest meetings of the year ken hall wally searle and froome its all just a bunch of fun and if people start changing classes and separating people someone is bound to have a moan at something yeah you get the people that can win weekend after weekend on what ever they like but there only there to have some fun if they were that serious about it they would go and buy a modern and race in the world championships twinshock racing is a place for people to learn and start and to do after they've have had enough of the modern racing its not the world championships so why is everyone moaning at what bikes people are riding

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  billy on Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:30 pm

i don't think people are 'moaning' its more the older people(no offence intended to anyone here) see it as a 'bastardisation' of the 'original' sport that they knew and grew up with riding, motorsport is always progressive and twinshock sidecars are no exception, tyres for example are something that we could 'nit pick' over, i dont think the tyres used today were around in the 80's etc etc(rubber technology moves forward in 30 years) but like i said its 'nit picking' and motorsport is progressive. This does detract from the original issue though, throwing the question around as to whether or not to split sidecars into different classes, on a note i think the expert and junior classes like at farleigh worked quite well too

but gods right hand man does state what we all know "its all just a bunch of fun" and we should always remember this otherwise we can become too 'anal' about the sport and its 'purity' and it will fall into ever decreasing circles and then die

just as a footnote you may like to know that the frech crew freddy perin / flo pinto are running thier wasp twinshock alongside the modern bikes in the french championship, and they seem to go well.

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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  halfmanhalfgorilla on Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:53 am

it would be lovely if everyone viewed it as just a bit of fun but theres always guna be a few that want to ban one thing which then leads to the next and so on and so forth.it would be good if to save all the admin and hassle of running 2 classes to just run the pre 85 class with anything pre 85 allowed 2 strokes. 4 strokes. singles. twins the lot but you couldnt just single out and ban something. eg a single cylinder 4stroke as long as it can be proved that it was made pre 85 it shud be allowed to run no if ahs or buts about it.if everyone comes up with a proposal im more than happy to take it forward to the amca at the classic dates and decissions meeting,has anyone got any ideas on how to decide on the final proposals and hav sum sort of vote on it?
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Re: The Way Forward.

Post  neilaldridge on Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:02 pm

What was the original reason for requiring separate classes? That should be the starting point for any possible rule amendments.

If I am correct in thinking that some twinshock sidecar meetings have trouble in filling the start line, surely by splitting the current outfits into two groups just dilutes the already sparce entries? Or will the groups race together, in which case the crews out there racing for fun will not notice the pseudo segregration?

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Re: The Way Forward.

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